Do you believe that it was Christ’s intention at the cross to save every single individual who ever lived or would live? If so, then you believe in a limited atonement. You believe that although the Father desires to save every person, Jesus made full atonement on the cross, and the Holy Spirit “woos” everyone, patiently working to change the free choices of men, that it all could be for nothing because man’s almighty free will could reject all of this and end up in eternal torment.
Think about it. If His intention was to save every single soul, He did not fulfill His intention, because the Bible tells us that there are people who will suffer in Hell for eternity. Even worse, there were already people in torment while Jesus was hanging on that cross. Was He suffering agony in place of those who were already lost?
The doctrine of limited atonement is a contentious one because of the strong emotional response that both sides have to it. Before getting into it too far, I would ask that we remember that while emotions are a gift from God, they should not guide our theology. His written Word must inform our minds, and then our emotions can respond.
The doctrine of limited atonement (also known as particular atonement) basically says that Christ’s death actually saves, as opposed to only making salvation possible under the condition that we “accept His gift”. Put another way, I believe that Jesus is a perfect saviour, meaning that every single person that He intended to save will without a doubt be in Heaven for all eternity! Praise the Lord!
Let me be clear. I’m NOT saying that we don’t need to have personal faith. The Bible is clear that we MUST believe to be saved. You will remember from previous posts that the Bible teaches that God is the One Who grants us faith.
I am also NOT saying that Christ’s death was not powerful enough to save absolutely everyone. Jesus is the Almighty God. He is eternal, and all powerful. He could have saved everyone in a billion Earths. The question is: who did He intend to save?
If you’re like me, you have been taught that Jesus wanted to save every person who ever lived throughout history. That does have a kind of emotional appeal, but let’s look at this a little closer. Is it loving for God to provide a conditional atonement that is equally available to every person when He knows that not one of them can change their wicked heart and respond in faith?
"Many divines say that Christ did something when he died that enabled God to be just, and yet the Justifier of the ungodly. What that something is they do not tell us. They believe in an atonement made for everybody; but then, their atonement is just this. They believe that Judas was atoned for just as much as Peter; they believe that the damned in hell were as much an object of Jesus Christ’s satisfaction as the saved in heaven; and though they do not say it in proper words, yet they must mean it, for it is a fair inference, that in the case of multitudes, Christ died in vain, for he died for them all, they say; and yet so ineffectual was his dying for them, that though he died for them they are damned afterwards. Now, such an atonement I despise — I reject it.
I may be called a Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than an universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it.” - C. H. Spurgeon:
If God really wants to save everyone, He certainly can. Look at some verses on God’s sovereignty:
Psalm 115:3 - But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Psalm 135:6 - Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
We are, for the most part, happy that God is in control of hurricanes, earthquakes, even the hearts of kings or politicians, but we have a problem when it gets personal. “Sure, let Him turn the heart of the king, but I want my free will!”
I haven’t found anything in the Bible to suggest that He limits His sovereignty when it comes to man. Some say that God is a “Perfect Gentleman” and would never override our free will, but remember, if He leaves us to ourselves we will remain dead in sin, and slaves to it.
Further, we say we believe in a “substitutionary atonement”. This means that Jesus actually bore the righteous wrath of the Father IN THE PLACE OF those He saved. We say “Christ died for you.” If He paid for the sins of every single person who ever lived or would live, how would God punish these people for the same sins again? You may say, “They didn’t accept what Jesus did for them.” But isn’t that a sin? One that Jesus paid for, according to Arminian theology?
Isaiah 53:11 says “He (the Father) shall see of the travail of his (Jesus’) soul, and shall be satisfied.” The Father was satisfied with Jesus sacrifice. His wrath against sin was extinguished. If Jesus’ death was in the place of absolutely everyone, and the Father was satisfied with regard to everyone’s sin, then no one could be punished for their sins. They would already have been paid for.
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
John 8:47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, BECAUSE you are not of God."
John 10:25-28
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Notice Jesus does NOT say that they aren’t His sheep because they don’t believe. Watch the order of the words.
John 12:37-40
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
It pretty much speaks for itself, doesn’t it?
Other passages could be mentioned, like John 17 where Jesus prays not for the world, but for those who the Father gave to Him out of the world. Or Luke 8:10 where Jesus says that He speaks to the crowds in parables so they will see without seeing and hear without understanding. Surely these are not the actions of One who is doing all He can to save everyone. He is not politely standing at the door of everyone’s heart, patiently waiting for the mighty creature to allow his maker in. He is the powerful Sovereign of the universe, and those that He desires to save will definitely be saved.
For more on limited atonement, check out these links:
Having grown up Mennonite, reindoctrinated in Baptist theology as an adult, this concept is very uncomfortable. How do you reconcile this teaching with "the great commission"?
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like we have similar backgrounds. This was not something I embraced overnight either.
ReplyDeleteThe Great Commission is still in force, of course. I liken it to the parable of the sower. The sower sows the seed, which is the Word of God. The sower sows everywhere, and some seed falls beside the road, some among the thorns, some onto rocky soil, but some on good soil.
When we evangelize, we sow the Word of God to everyone, but we don’t know whether God has prepared the soil of the person’s heart. We’re just obedient to the Great Commission, and we have confidence that God will definitely save His elect.
As for it being uncomfortable, I understand what you are saying. However, the more you search the Scriptures and find that these things are true, the more comfort they give you because if you are saved, you realize that while we were sinners, enemies of God, He made absolutely sure to save you. He set His love on His people based on “the good pleasure of His will” alone, before the foundation of the world. The end was never in doubt, and all of this is the basis for eternal security, which I hope to address shortly. Plus it makes us realize that God is on the throne, absolutely sovereign in all things.
So would you say then that everything that happens is always God's will? Where does this leave prayer? If someone is elected to salvation, will God not save them then without our help?
ReplyDeletePlease understand I'm not asking to argue. I'm asking for clarification to help me understand what you're saying.
What about when God say he wishes all men to be saved? The key word there is all...not the elect. How can he wish all would be saved when he's already elected some to be damned. Doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeleteNot a problem, Anonymous! I appreciate sincere questions, and I hope I can give a satisfactory, biblical answer.
ReplyDeleteIn one sense, yes, everything is controlled by God. I believe it was Dr. James White who said there are no renegade atoms in the universe. From natural disasters to so-called luck, it’s all under God’s sovereign control. Even sin, though He reins it in so it’s not out of control, can be used for God’s purposes without Him being responsible for it. Like Joseph told his brothers who sold him into slavery in Egypt, “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.”
We pray because God commands us to. It’s similar to evangelizing. God has foreordained the end but also the means to the end.
1 Cor. 1:21b – “it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe”.
Praying expresses our dependence on Him. He is not surprised by anything, and He even knows whether we will pray and what we will pray for. God wants His people to pray, and He is glorified in answering according to His will.
One could ask why the Arminian prays for people to be saved. If God is doing all He can to save a person, but the person’s stubborn will is in the way, what more can we ask God to do?
Hi Bubba,
ReplyDeleteYou said that He “already elected some to be damned”. Keep in mind that all would be lost without God’s intervention. He only needs to be true to His word to damn people, because He said that if we sin, we would die. It shows His love and mercy that He would send the Substitute to save any at all! He wasn’t obligated to save anyone.
I believe you were referring to 1 Tim. 2:4 which says “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
At first glance this seems to say that God wants every single person in the world to be saved, but that would contradict the other Scriptures that I referenced in the post. We know that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, so we need to study this more closely.
Does “all” have to necessarily mean every single person who ever lived? It’s like a teacher asking her class “Are we all here?” Surely the word “all” needs to be defined by its context.
Paul often uses the word all to refer to all kinds of people, or classes of people. If you look at Titus 2:11 you have the “all men” again, but the context talks about older men, older women, young men, young women, slaves, masters, husbands, and wives (implied). 1 Tim. 2:1 is the first place in the chapter where the word “all” is used, and verse two expands on it, referring to kings and all who are in authority.
Most Christians at the time were persecuted by people in authority. Remember that even Paul, a.k.a. Saul, used to persecute Christians, so you can understand why believers needed to be reminded to pray for all people, even kings and those in authority. God will save people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (Rev. 5:9).
This also makes more sense than understanding this to mean that Timothy was to pray for every single person in the world, right? And understanding “all” to refer to all types of people allows us to be consistent with the other passages where it’s clear that God chooses whom He will have mercy on.
I believe Nick that you are walking on thin ice, so to speak. One simple thing. For whososever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
ReplyDeleteI think I’m on the firm foundation of Scripture. Did I ever say that someone would call on the name of the Lord and not be saved?
ReplyDeleteThe question is: who will call? Why does one call on the Lord and another with the same exposure to truth does not call?
Is it something special inside one person that makes him or her call when others do not?
I have a different view on the comment said:I haven’t found anything in the Bible to suggest that He limits His sovereignty when it comes to man. Some say that God is a “Perfect Gentleman” and would never override our free will, but remember, if He leaves us to ourselves we will remain dead in sin, and slaves to it. MY VIEW IS : God is a perfect Gentlemen and does not override our free will,other wise it would not be a free will now would it !It's the Goodness of God that brings a man to repentance and transforms us into his likeness and not people being forced into something or being made to feel guilty!Gods word also says that not even the wrath of God can bring a man to repentance but the goodness of God can.So why are there Pastors preaching Bondage and condemnation? The Holy Spirit is Our Great Teacher and the One to Convict Us,not Man.You also mentioned that we would remain dead in sin and slaves to it? Nope you will not.God said "he will Finnish the good work the He began in us" not us trying to Finnish it.The Holy Spirit is "what drives us as Christians to do good and to live a life that is pleasing to God.Remember The work is finished,so stop trying to earn Gods favor for you already have it you just don't believe it yet.That's all part of the Glorious Work that Christ did in our place so that we could have life and have it more abundantly,"So THAT NO MAN COULD BOAST" Now just accept it for it is yours!Question is how Great is your desire to allow the Holy Spirit guide direct and live through you? What a Great and awesome God we Serve !
ReplyDeleteSo can you show me from Scripture that we have a free will before we are converted? I know we are created in the image of God, but because of the fall our will is enslaved to sin before God sets us free. The Bible says we are enemies of God before He changes us, so we would only use our "free will" in rebellion unless God raises us to spiritual life.
ReplyDeleteWhen God regenerates us, He will finish the work He began. I also agree that our righteousness is not our own, it's a foreign righteousness. We have the righteousness of Christ! We absolutely already have God's favour, IF we are in Christ. At this point I should add that this does not give us license to sin, as I'm sure you would agree.
I guess we have to look at Romans 10 in the light of Romans 9. Only the people who God calls will call on him.
ReplyDeletePeoples Free will Was established in the time Of Adam,I cant save Eve yet for she had not been created at this point. Genesis 2 Vs 15-17 The Lord God took the Man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God Commanded the Man,"you are free to eat from any tree in the garden;but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil,for when you eat of it you will surely die" Here God gave Man a Choice either obey what he told the man or disobey.Why Would God place such a tree in this Garden if he knew that man might be tempted by it? He gave Man A "Free Choice,Free Will" to either choose life or Death ,God never Forced Adam and Eve to Obey by keeping them away from this tree and not eat from it, but rather he let them make a choice to obey what God had told them or and disobey and choose to eat of it.If God had forced them to not eat of this tree they would not have had a Free Will now would they? I just had a thought come to mind as I was reading and typing this out,This tree of Knowledge resembles our lives and Choices that we make.God's word is the way of life,and Our free will is to either serve him or despise him.No one can serve two masters. Make a choice and take a Stand ! And to say yes I agree with your point about Righteousness no it not our own but it comes from God who has deemed us righteous through the work that Christ did for his Children.Who does God see when he looks at you? ( Jesus ) and to add your comment that this does not give us a license to sin: Gal 5 vs 13-15 You my brothers were called to be free But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature rather serve one another in love.The entire law is summed up in a single command:Love your neighbor as yourself.If you keep on biting and devouring each other,watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Romans 6 complete chapter.
ReplyDeleteMDZ,
ReplyDeleteEphesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
His good pleasure and will was that the Ephesian Christians would be there eventually and that it was decided before creation. So did Adam and Eve have a choice in changing this plan of God's?
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Who's will?
Good question as to Did Adam and Eve have A Choice in changing this plan of Gods.Yes God has predestined his people,He already knew from the beginning who his chosen ones were, but this still not mean that they don't have a Free will.God is not Forcing us to do his will is He?Not like some Pastors that try to ram it down your throat,or take desperate measures or use evil tactics,or manipulate people to keep people under control.That's putting People back into Bondage,and under the law.Christ came to set us free from Bondage,and as we experience him and his goodness,we in turn will want to do what is good and pleasing to him.As you yield yourself to him and the Leading of the Holy Spirit you will change on the inside,(FAITH)which in turn will cause you to do what he wants you to do,(an outward change,-- (Works) It's not a matter of the preacher telling you to do something it is a matter of the heart and why you are acting upon its leading.Some say the heart is misleading,But do you forget that's where we asked Jesus to come into?God knows our heats desires.We are also to guard our heart.Its not just about doing right things,Just like Jesus said he wanted us to do Right things for the right reasons. Who is also to say that there was no life on other planets?or Why did God Create these planets? of what use are they? Why did he place the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden? My answer is still that we Have a Free Will Because God Does not, and Will not, force us even though we are predestined ( lest we all be a bunch of robots) It is however like I said as we yield ourselves to
ReplyDeleteGod that we begin to see, and live,and experience that abundant life that Jesus was talking about. It's good to rattle the cage so to speak every now and then to challenge and help us understand why we believe what we believe.To sift away the chaff to test in the fire etc. To see what will stay True and just in the End (GODS WORD and HIS WAYS) God isn't concerned how many times we may mess up (unlike people)but rather that we get up and press toward the Goal in (Christ JESUS)
I have some more chaff to ad to the fire.IF God could save everyone then could he save Satan ? Also it was posted that God did not Fulfill his intention to save every soul and therefore did not fulfill his intention.God Did fulfill it and just like I posted on one of my other posts people have a Free Will,otherwise you are contradicting what you posted in either the first posts listed here or what your reply was to me!
ReplyDeleteHi MDZ,
ReplyDeleteI think it's important to keep some issues separate. For example, you refer to the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, but we can't really compare ourselves to them. They started out pre-fall, before the curse. We are "in Adam" and we never start with a clean slate like Adam did. See Romans 5.
The other thing is that you are comparing a human pastor with God. I don't think you can compare the two the way you are. God is sovereign, man is not.
You seem pretty stuck on the free will thing, but I can't find it in the Bible. Yes, we do make choices, and our will is free in the sense that we can choose according to our nature, but our nature is corrupt before we are saved. I don't want to repeat the Total Depravity post here, but you might want to check it out. And if you don't like the "robot" thing, then just think of humans as clay in the sovereigns hands as Romans 9 says. ;)
Yes, God could save Satan if He wanted to, but the whole point of this post is that He has mercy on whom He wants to. It's all up to God, and He chose not to save angels. Why should He be forced to save all humans?
When Christ came to set us Free how Free did he set you? Think about it ! he set as free enough to do what ever we wanted,Unless you can see and understand that freedom, you still are not set free.What we do with that freedom is up to us.Paul even said what shall we do go on sinning? You could if you wanted to you are free enough to do so.It would defeat the purpose of what Christ was trying to do for us, but we are still free to make a choice.YES I AM stuck and Convinced of the Free Will Thing.When the Spirit Shall SET YOU FREE YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED ! Some pastors tend to exalt themselves to a much higher level than they should is my point.We Are Gods Righteousness are we not? not that we have earned or are worthy of it it is a Gift from God under his Grace and not of works ! There is a big difference to between living under the Law and living under Grace and to Many pastors still don't know as Experience the difference so they still preach condemnation (LAW) I'm Thankful to live under Grace,for to live under the law and fulfill it is impossible for man.
ReplyDeleteI Tend to disagree with that comment that God Could save Satan.He would totally have to go against his word and all that he is and deny himself,Not possible.Because God is bound by his word unlike man.
ReplyDeleteWhen God saved you and me, did He go against His word? Did He deny Himself when He saves humans? Do you think our sin stinks less in the nostrils of God than when Satan or the other angels sinned?
ReplyDeleteTalking about whether or not God could have saved Satan makes me uncomfortable because I know it's not going to happen. That said, God is all-powerful and Jesus' death was absolutely perfect and totally acceptable to the Father.
Add to this that anything less than perfection is unacceptable to God. God is absolutely perfect. The slightest deviation from perfection is sin, and that sin must be punished by God. God chose to punish His own Son rather than punish His people for eternity. If it's a question of ability, yes, I believe God could save Satan because His sin was no worse of an offence to God than ours. It comes back to the intent of the atonement, and it was not His intent to save Satan.
Whether or not our sin stinks any less isn't even an issue if you are a Believer,It's all been paid for on the cross .Our sin is covered under the blood,Satan's and his followers are not.You must be a believer to have the rights to this pardon ! Are We Prefect ? you state that anything less than perfection is unacceptable to God.Yes we are perfect in "Gods eyes "not in a humans eyes.It's also not a matter of who's sin is or was worse,Sin is Sin,not one sin bigger than another (Except the unpardonable Sin)I Still disagree with God being able to save Satan reasons Being: Satan would have to accept Christ(to be exempt)God is bound to his word and if he saved Satan then that to would make him a Liar ! you may feel uncomfortable with even talking about or commenting on this topic but I have no issues with it, and I don't believe that God does either. Anyways no reason for us to get all tied up in matters that don't or that we cant change anyways. But it does cause us to wonder about things and question things and that is always good. Thanks !
ReplyDeleteIt's clear to me that you don't understand my position. I agree that believers' sin is paid at the cross, so we are 100% perfect in God's eyes. Satan and his followers are not, because God chose not to apply Jesus blood to their sins and give them faith to believe. God did choose to save some humans and give us faith to believe.
ReplyDeleteSin is sin, and my point is that if God can forgive us based on Jesus work, He could just as easily to the same for the angelic realm. Remember that no human would choose to believe apart from God first choosing us. Have you read the post on Total Depravity? How would God be a liar if He saved the angelic realm, but not if He saves humans, if sin is sin? Was it not pride that got Satan kicked out of Heaven?
I think this will be my last post on the subject.
Sorry, one more. You seem to be so stuck on the free will thing that you're not reading correctly. You misquote me and misrepresent what I have said.
ReplyDeleteApr. 11, 7:07 you said that I said God did not fulfill His intention, but I believe I said the opposite. IF it was God's intention to save everyone He would have failed. I believe He chose to save only some, and He saves those perfectly. He absolutely fulfilled His intention. Read carefully.
Sorry if I misunderstood your point,I never meant to misrepresent what you were saying.I guess you don't understand my points either I was not Calling God a liar,If that's what you thought then you were not understanding me correctly.I have not had or gone to School to learn or study theology or what ever.I have little use for people that try to use this as a power trip or thinking that they are so much wiser.Just like Jesus said you need not that Man teach but rather the Holy Spirit who will guide you and teach you.To much of Man's teaching,and learning can get in the way of learning from the Master( HOLY Spirit ) ! Sifting out the Trash.
ReplyDeleteI don't have any formal theological training either. Would love to though! I've come across the kind of people you're talking about too. Very frustrating.
ReplyDeleteOh, I didn't think you were calling God a liar. :) Always fun to talk theology!
Kewl Nick! It is Good to get different opinions to think outside the box so to speak.God is far bigger and Greater than we can even imagine,and his love for all mankind is no less awesome.I wish some People could realize, and know our Identity In Christ and what consists of.To many of us are being robbed of our joy and blessings that we have in Christ ! We Truly have a reason to be excited and thankfull to our Savior.Why he would choose to save such a lost and wicked world,and Choose to die in our stead.Wow, To grasp and understand that he did not have to but rather he choose to do the fathers will.Talk about undeserving and a love that endured all the pain and suffering in our place.AS we yield and submit ourselves out of love for our God we cant help but want to do his will.I Get so annoyed with the fire and brimstone way of teaching and all the do's and dont's they are not God's way.That's not us his people acting out of a genuine love for god it's acting out of a fear of God.I'M Glad that i"m over or through that way of thinking and living. OooH What it means to be FREE ! Off topic here but are you from Canada or the USA ? Take care Bro
ReplyDeleteWe truly have an amazing God! To answer your question, I am Canadian.
ReplyDeleteTake care.
Sorry Nick: for my post on floppy joes site in regards to not answering my post on your site.I was thinking at the time that you were trying to ignore me.I Hope there are no hard feelings.It's hard to really get to know a person from just reading these blogs.We don't know their intentions and sometimes we get confused as how to take or understand each other. Again my apologies to you I'm sorry.
ReplyDeleteNope, no hard feelings. Truthfully, if I saw the comment, I don't remember it. I know things don't come across the way they're meant sometimes when the communication isn't face to face, so my skin is pretty thick.
ReplyDeleteI hope I haven't come across as rude either! If I did, I apologize as well. That goes for everyone here.
Hey Nick No problems here either.It's usually the religious and self righteous ones that are not truly free at this time; that take offense just like in the days of Jesus ! We are truly Free and it annoys them. Question for you Nick: are you the one that someone took a shot at saying you were a young so and so not knowing how to study God's word?
ReplyDeleteYes, that would be me...
ReplyDelete